Post #5120
04-19-2010 11:47 PM
Duke-of-Waterloo
Construction Moderator
Date Jan 2010 Location Waterloo, ON Posts 316
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In 2008, the Region of Waterloo rolled out a pilot program for pedestrian countdown signals (PCS) at select intersections in the Region. Most of the intersections selected have a history of problems (i.e. Homer Watson & Ottawa, Bridgeport & King, Franklin & Can Amera). Generally, how do you think this pilot program has worked? Should it be rolled out as a standard feature at all new/updated intersections?
Region Staff Report on PCS: http://region.waterloo.on.ca/web/reg...df?openelement
How do you feel the PCS pilot program has worked? As we are aware, with some of the intersections with existing PCS, there have been proposals to convert to roundabouts. |
Post #5136
04-20-2010 07:04 AM
smably
Member
Date Feb 2010 Posts 65
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I think the pedestrian countdown timers are a terrific idea, but I know there are some implementation problems. At the King/Bridgeport intersection, the signal gives only five seconds to cross Bridgeport, which is about half what is needed. I'm a fast walker and I can't make it across the intersection if the countdown starts within a second of stepping off the curb. Make it ten seconds and it has my full support. |
Post #5139
04-20-2010 08:09 AM
Waterlooer
Member
Date Apr 2010 Location K/W Posts 58
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I love crossing streets with this countdown. I makes it feel more safe to cross. |
Post #5142
04-20-2010 08:24 AM
IEFBR14
Senior Member
Date Mar 2010 Location H2OWC Posts 302
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 Originally Posted by smably  At the King/Bridgeport intersection, the signal gives only five seconds to cross Bridgeport, which is about half what is needed. That's not a problem with countdown signals; it's a problem with brain-dead traffic engineers. Even 10 seconds may not be enough for seniors and others who need a bit of extra time to cross safely.
Has anyone noticed that some car drivers use the countdown to speed up in order to avoid an imminent light change? That's particularly dangerous when they then make a hurried turn at the intersection, potentially into pedestrians' paths. I'm not sure what we can do about that. |
Post #5143
04-20-2010 08:48 AM
Osiris
Junior Member
Date Feb 2010 Posts 21
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Originally Posted by IEFBR14 Has anyone noticed that some car drivers use the countdown to speed up in order to avoid an imminent light change? That's particularly dangerous when they then make a hurried turn at the intersection, potentially into pedestrians' paths. I'm not sure what we can do about that. I've found drivers do that anyhow when it was just the blinking hand - I'd argue it's safer now because some (not all, obviously) can use it as a more precise indicator to gauge whether it's worth going for it.
(Not that I'm speaking from experience...) |
Post #5150
04-20-2010 09:37 AM
IEFBR14
Senior Member
Date Mar 2010 Location H2OWC Posts 302
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Originally Posted by Osiris I'd argue it's safer now because some (not all, obviously) can use it as a more precise indicator to gauge whether it's worth going for it. Or more dangerous for exactly the same reason, i.e. because they can see how much time is left they sometimes speed up in an effort to beat the clock.
I agree that other drivers (me for example) have for years used the blinking hand as a signal to lay off the gas and coast because the light ahead is about to change.
The questions are
1. Do countdowns encourage drivers to slow down or speed up as the count goes down to low single digits?
2. How does this behaviour compare to blinking hands? |
Post #5152
04-20-2010 09:43 AM
garthdanlor
Senior Member
Date Mar 2010 Location Uglyopolis Posts 132
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I think we will end up with less people going through the yellow/red because they know exactly when it will change. However, we will also see higher speeds from some people as they will gun the car to get through the light as they know exactly when it changes. So, a little good with the bad. |
Post #5153
04-20-2010 09:43 AM
Spokes
Senior Moderator
Date Dec 2009 Location Kitchener Posts 2,027
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Originally Posted by IEFBR14 That's not a problem with countdown signals; it's a problem with brain-dead traffic engineers. Even 10 seconds may not be enough for seniors and others who need a bit of extra time to cross safely. Yup you're right. The countdown lights are fantastic, but 5 seconds is the dumbest thing in the world.
Originally Posted by IEFBR14 Has anyone noticed that some car drivers use the countdown to speed up in order to avoid an imminent light change? That's particularly dangerous when they then make a hurried turn at the intersection, potentially into pedestrians' paths. I'm not sure what we can do about that. Im sure its not at all easy to do, and you cant police it across the board, but the cops should step up. They should clamp down on all "pedestrian-unfriendly" traffic offences and the fines should be increased. It should be a way of the Region saying, we are committed to making our city safer for pedestrians. So if it's turning left while cutting someone off, they should be issued a ticket. Ive seen far too many cops watch it happen, that's embarassing. |
Post #5163
04-20-2010 10:19 AM
Osiris
Junior Member
Date Feb 2010 Posts 21
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Originally Posted by IEFBR14 Or more dangerous for exactly the same reason, i.e. because they can see how much time is left they sometimes speed up in an effort to beat the clock.
I agree that other drivers (me for example) have for years used the blinking hand as a signal to lay off the gas and coast because the light ahead is about to change.
The questions are
1. Do countdowns encourage drivers to slow down or speed up as the count goes down to low single digits?
2. How does this behaviour compare to blinking hands? I might be simplifying this too much, but I only see the count being positive from a "trying to beat the light" standpoint.
I wouldn't expect it to create new "accelerators" - people who would gun it at a blinking hand would still accelerate now.
What I would say it does is it improves traffic flow by providing information to others (like myself) who before had to know an intersection really well to determine whether or not one should try for it.
Crossing Caroline on Erb - the hand blinks 18 times during work hours, and the hand starts roughly 5-7 seconds after the light turns green. I know because I cross that intersection at least 4 times daily. If someone were to ease off the gas as soon as they see the hand - and many do - they slow down the people behind them, and more vehicles get trapped behind the light, idling and staying longer on the road. If they knew that they had 30 seconds before the light changed, they would likely continue at their pace, and more vehicles would make it through. |
Post #5171
04-20-2010 10:31 AM
IEFBR14
Senior Member
Date Mar 2010 Location H2OWC Posts 302
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Originally Posted by Spokes They should clamp down on all "pedestrian-unfriendly" traffic offences and the fines should be increased. It should be a way of the Region saying, we are committed to making our city safer for pedestrians. So if it's turning left while cutting someone off, they should be issued a ticket. Ive seen far too many cops watch it happen, that's embarassing. They should, but they won't. Maybe if we lobby long enough and hard enough, but I'm not at all optimistic. Recall that in January six pedestrians were hit by car drivers while trying to cross streets, two of them in wheelchairs and one was killed. What are the region and cities doing about that now? Not much I suspect. They just blame it on mild weather and lack of snow (read the article) and hope the public quickly forgets. The careless driving with the resultant carnage continues...
We need to change peoples' attitudes about this the same way we managed to change attitudes about drunk driving in the 1980s. That will require a commitment from the province on down to make drivers more responsible for their actions. It will require ad campaigns to keep these issues in the public's mind. It will require more policing with more severe consequences for breaking the law. It will require more stringent driver testing. It will require periodic driver retesting rather than the present license-for-life. Etc.
Who's going to make all that happen? |
Post #5215
04-20-2010 02:59 PM
Duke-of-Waterloo
Construction Moderator
Date Jan 2010 Location Waterloo, ON Posts 319
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Originally Posted by IEFBR14
Has anyone noticed that some car drivers use the countdown to speed up in order to avoid an imminent light change? That's particularly dangerous when they then make a hurried turn at the intersection, potentially into pedestrians' paths. I'm not sure what we can do about that. Not in Waterloo Region where only a small handful of intersections have a PCS. In Toronto though, where every single intersection has a PCS, definitely. I think driving habits between these two urban areas are quite different though. |
Post #5221
04-20-2010 04:23 PM
TripleQ
Member
Date Jan 2010 Posts 37
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Originally Posted by smably I think the pedestrian countdown timers are a terrific idea, but I know there are some implementation problems. At the King/Bridgeport intersection, the signal gives only five seconds to cross Bridgeport, which is about half what is needed. I'm a fast walker and I can't make it across the intersection if the countdown starts within a second of stepping off the curb. Make it ten seconds and it has my full support. Is that with the pedestrian button pushed though? I know a lot of intersections have a longer duration if the button is pushed. |
Post #5229
04-20-2010 05:51 PM
smably
Member
Date Feb 2010 Posts 66
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Originally Posted by TripleQ Is that with the pedestrian button pushed though? I know a lot of intersections have a longer duration if the button is pushed. That intersection doesn't have the push buttons.
I think the concerns about drivers racing to beat the timer are overblown. Even in Toronto, the police say they haven't seen that sort of behaviour:
"I think it's a cautionary message for motorists as well as to how much time they still have left to make a safe manoeuvre within the intersection," says Grant, noting police haven't witnessed drivers speeding through intersections with seconds to go on the timers. |
