Wonderful Waterloo Archive

This site is maintained by Sam Nabi as a record of the vibrant Wonderful Waterloo community, which was taken offline in 2014. This site is a partial archive, containing some posts from 2009-2013. To read more about the recovery effort and access the data in a machine-readable format, check out the GitHub page.

Streetcar/Light Rail versus Bus Service

Post #5313 04-21-2010 10:11 PM smably Member Date Feb 2010 Posts 69	I think the concerns about visual pollution might be a bit exaggerated. We aren't going to have a streetcar network like the TTC. It's when multiple lines cross at intersections that you get the web of wires that a lot of people associate with streetcars. Modern streetcars and light rail can be built with fairly inconspicuous wires. They might actually be considered visually pleasing in some cases (for example). They're a bit like wind turbines -- to some, they are visual pollution, but to others they have positive associations that outweigh the visual clutter. I'm definitely in the latter camp.
Post #5316 04-21-2010 10:35 PM UrbanWaterloo Senior Moderator Date Dec 2009 Location Kitchener-Waterloo Posts 1,722	Originally Posted by taylortbb I checked the math, that's the definitely the ratio in Portland. I don't know the exact methodology in the data, and it is from the National Streetcar Coalition so it's not unbiased. It is however definitely the correct number. I'm also not sure what time period they consider, or what the consider to be "private investment". I wouldn't be surprised if close to 20% of our GDP is already in the central transit corridor. It represent a significant land area, and includes just about everything of regional signifigance. I hear you, and I get your point, but it is correct for the data I got. I wouldn't be surprised either to see 20% of our GDP in the central transit corridor, in fact it's likely much higher. However you can't look at what currently exists and then say LRT brought those industries: we need to look at what's newly predicted to happen. For example, if $1-billion in investment is currently planned in the CTC without LRT, but after LRT is built $3-billion occurs, you wouldn't be able to claim the entire $3-billion due to transit improvements, but rather just the $2-billion difference. For timelines I was using a decade since you mentioned: "For projects built in the US in the past decade (no good Canadian data), the average private investment was 22 times the government investment in LRT" Generally a popular measure when looking at a public ROI is surrounding building permits. For example, the City of Kitchener invested $30-million into the School of Pharmacy, and as a result $40-million was invested into the Kaufman Lofts and $30 million into The Tannery, etc... That measure is by no means perfect, but going by it, the entire amount of Building Permits in Waterloo Region is only about $1-billion annually (side note: I can't believe I don't have a thread up on BPs yet). It would take half a century to reach the $57-billion private investment return (actually longer since some BPs are for public projects). That would also be assuming that everything newly built in the region will be inside the CTC, which as much as I'd like to see happen, isn't entirely realistic. I do believe LRTs bring in a huge amount of private investment, just not nearly as much as the document you're referring to states. I'd love to find a more accurate number though, or a full breakdown/calculation from start to finish.
Post #5321 04-21-2010 11:43 PM mpd618 Senior Member Date Jan 2010 Location Waterloo, ON Posts 298	Since we're on the subject, I just want to clarify: Streetcars are to regular buses what light rail is to BRT. Generally "streetcar" refers to a line in mixed traffic, with relatively frequent stops (e.g. 200m), and with minimal stop infrastructure; "light rail" has infrequent stations (e.g. 1km), separation from other traffic, and larger vehicles (or multi-car trains). As with buses, there's all kinds of mixtures possible, but those are the reference points.
Post #5322 04-21-2010 11:49 PM taylortbb Senior Member Date Jan 2010 Location Waterloo, Ontario Posts 107 Taylor Byrnes	Originally Posted by UrbanWaterloo I wouldn't be surprised either to see 20% of our GDP in the central transit corridor, in fact it's likely much higher. However you can't look at what currently exists and then say LRT brought those industries: we need to look at what's newly predicted to happen. For example, if $1-billion in investment is currently planned in the CTC without LRT, but after LRT is built $3-billion occurs, you wouldn't be able to claim the entire $3-billion due to transit improvements, but rather just the $2-billion difference. I agree with you, I'm just trying to find a possible explanation. I've been trying to find the data online but I can't anymore. I corrected my orignal post, it was the Community Streetcar Coalition. Maybe you'll have better luck trying to find it, then you could see some methodology details. The math is also based on public : private investment ratios. US light rail projects seem to be cheaper per kilometer than Canadian projects, which could boost the ratio.